Count Zero Member of the Cult of the Dead Cow February 5 . Count Zero, as he prefers to be called, is a co-founder of l0pht and member of the Cult of the Dead Cow, two long-standing hacker groups. Count Zero says he began as a "classic" hacker in his teenage years, but has given up breaking into protected computers in favor of "studying the complex exchange of ideas on the Internet" and hackers' "role in it all." He is a strong proponent of "hacktivism" . using computers and hacking as a tool for social change. Count Zero is 31 years old, lives in Boston, and works in the "real world" in the health care field. He also works at a major university conducting research in computer-supported cooperative work. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator at 3:00pm ET Hello, everyone. We're just waiting for Count Zero to chime in and say hello, and then we'll get started. If you haven't posted your question, go right ahead! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:01pm ET ahoy... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:01pm ET I'm ready when you are. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator at 3:02pm ET Hi, there. Thanks for taking the time to chat with us, and please extend our thanks to the cDc for helping us with our story. First question coming right up.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- open-Bin from poly.edu at 3:02pm ET Most hackers do "this" for the fun of it, most do it for the challenge, most do it to test system security and finally most do it to be Known. Which motivated you..? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:03pm ET I was motivated by curiosity and challenge. Being "known" had nothing to do with it. I was always interested in how the innards of things worked (mechanical and electrical). Hacking was just a way of expressing that curiosity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- oldHACK from [199.234.170.24], at 3:04pm ET Are the new breed in it for the "edge," or just bored? In college I learned Assembly Code and others on AT's, and it's still a buzz to not be fazed when "cracking the case" or fixing Windows hangups. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:07pm ET Well, I think the "old breed" of hackers sometimes forget what it was like to be a "young breed." I think younger hackers are doing it for all the same reasons that us "old school" hackers did it...sometimes we were just bored, sometimes it was curiosity, and sometimes it was even a bit malicious...like knocking over mailboxes, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- nikki from [208.236.166.77], at 3:07pm ET How do you study to be a hacker? Where do you start? What kind of programing is helpful to know? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:11pm ET You don't study to be a hacker...you read BOOKS and MANUALS first...heh. I would go thru weird technical manuals just for the sheer enjoyment of learning how something worked. Also, meeting OTHER hackers was key in my life. I learned much from older hackers, both technical things and even philosophical things... That's why I started writing things and trying to organize other hackers into "clubs"..to get people talking to each other and the free flow of ideas going. As for programming, that's totally arbitrary. But Java is everywhere....and when in Rome... :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quicksilver from [206.154.192.3], at 3:12pm ET Where's the line between hacking and cracking? What should we do about people's legitimate rights to use the web v. the ability to abuse it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:15pm ET When I was a kid and learning about computers, you HAD to "crack" a bit to explore the Net (cracking= explicitly breaking into computers where you don't belong!). There were no commercial ISPs or ways you could set up your OWN system, and if you weren't in college there was no legit way to get an account or an email address. But THESE days, I think most hackers are actually setting up their own servers, their own networks...there's no real reason to break the law to explore. And as for legitimate rights to use the web, I think EVERYONE has a right to say whatever they want. Freedom of expression is very important to hackers. Anything that seriously stifles that is wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Capt. Hemp from mindspring.net at 3:16pm ET How do you feel about the fact that Back Orifice is being used pretty much exclusively for malicious intent by script kiddies that couldn't hack their way out of a wet paper bag? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:19pm ET Back Orifice is a powerful tool, and yes, it can be easily used for malicious intent. But that's true of ANY powerful tool...software, hardware, machines..... and it doesn't mean BO should not have been released. Should all knives be outlawed because they're used to commit crimes? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin from [207.40.245.30], at 3:20pm ET You use the word "hacktivism". Are you implying that hacking has some good points? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:25pm ET First of all, hacking is, by it's very nature, a GOOD thing. It's about exploring and pushing the boundaries of knowledge. Hacking is not just related to computers. Columbus was a hacker...scientists and researchers are by their nature, hackers. "Hacktivism" is the evolution of activism in a wired, global community. Using hacking "techniques" to achieve activist goals. And like "real world" activism, sometimes "hacktivism" involves breaking the law.....spraypainting slogans on a public wall vs. altering a website...both are the same level, in my mind. Also, what some people call "hacktivism" is, in my mind, really "information warfare." InfoWar is about nuking your enemy..stifling their expression...and that's something that "hacktivism" definitely is NOT. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KRASH2c from spencer1.wvadventures.net at 3:25pm ET Hey Count Zero. Ya know your my hero? Yeah keep the power movin hacktavism, yeah thats what I'm groovin. What do you think about this whole Declaration of War on China and Iraq? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator at 3:26pm ET For our readers' information, a group of hackers recently declared an "infowar" on China and Iraq, threatening their computer infrastructures. The cDc, l0pht, 2600, and others have spoken out against the declaration. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:28pm ET Hackers declaring InfoWar on Iraq and China is stupid, stupid, stupid...by taking out the telecommunications infrastructure of a country, you're hurting the PEOPLE in that country more than anything else..you're taking away their eyes and ears. BUT...focusing on empowering the people in those places with the TOOLS of hacktivism......making the WORLD know about the injustices and human rights abuses....in other words, getting the FLOW of INFORMATION pumpin' around the globe...UNIMPEDED and UNCENSORED.....THAT'S hacktivism...! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo from as.wcom.net at 3:29pm ET Who is at risk of being hacked into? What can one do about it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:30pm ET ...and if anyone threatens the free flow of information....hackers should use ALL their "skills" to stop that.. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:34pm ET Leo, if your computer has a wire out the back of it connecting it to the world, then you're at risk...period. That sounds flippant, but it's true. The only way to be 100% secure is to have a computer in an RF-shielded bunker with a dude with a rifle at the door checking retinal patters. What can you do about malicious hacking? Well, you can FIRST complain to MAJOR SOFTWARE COMPANIES that tell their users "oh, yeah, your software/operating system is secure...go for it," and then secretly try to patch and re-patch and re-re-patch security flaws and holes like some insane quiltwork. Make yourself AWARE of what EXACTLY is running on your computer...and what the insecurities are.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lone Paranoid from [209.191.21.78], at 3:36pm ET Call 'em Hackers, crackers, whatever, but I've noticed a new element of politically-driven kids in Chatrooms and websites who unleash viruses and 'freeze' people out who don't agree with their particular socioreligious views. As in Abortion chats, where the young pro-life drones seem more aggressive than ever. This concerns me as a Net User and a Pro Choice activist, and I am wondering how or what can be done to thwart or retaliate to these people? I sense they are like the young ones in the article, more destructive, less informed but just as deadly... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:39pm ET The best thing you can do about destructive, malicious young hackers is to EDUCATE them. I remember a time when I was a young hacker, and filled with confusion and free-floating anger, but also insatiable curiosity..in other words, a typical teenager.. :) If it hadn't been for older hacker friends who guided my skills in CREATIVE ways, I might have turned out much different. It's like in the real world, if you see a kid who's in a gang and doing crimes, you try to channel their skills into something POSITIVE. Show young hackers how cool it is to CREATE stuff...write new software....and how the FREE EXPRESSION of ideas on the Net is the coolest thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- syfur from dial.wxs.nl at 3:40pm ET I always thought that a hacker hacked into servers, not into workstations. So what's the use of Bo then? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:42pm ET Well, these days, EVERY computer is essentially a server...the power of your desktop workstation is great enough to run what used to be dedicated "server" functions, like shared file spaces and FTPd. With BO, you can turn a desktop workstation into a webserver without the user even knowing about it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- aNvil from [158.189.2.52], at 3:43pm ET iwirk for a infosec firm and they bill me out to clients for an unreal amount of money to do hacking security related tasks. Did you ever think that one could make a living (and a very comfortable one at that) by hacking? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:48pm ET Years ago, I never planned on making a living hacking, and honestly didn't expect hacking to ever be such a popular subject in the press as it is now. I think it's pretty wild how quickly hackers have gone from being nerdy geeks in basements to people with skills that are extremely valuable in the "real world." In an electronic global village, hackers are now real GUIDES...exploring the wildlife, knowing what plants are safe to eat, and how to avoid getting snatched up by 'gators. It's cool, and it's also a really big SOCIAL responsibility....hackers have to do the right thing...the future of electronic free speech really depends on it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lonely from proxy.aol.com at 3:49pm ET What do you think about the stereotype being used against hackers and stating that they are all "malicious" also, what do you think about the situation with Kevin Mitnick? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:53pm ET People who stereotype all hackers as "malicious" are just afraid of the power that hackers have in general. To oversimplify a bit, hackers know how computers work....and you depend on computers more and more each day....and every day the average person feels like they know LESS and LESS about how all the computers work around them. Knee-jerk stereotyping hackers as all "evil" is natural in this circumstance...people are simply afraid. Sure, some hackers are malicious....but that's just a common human trait that you'll find in any population. As for Kevin Mitnick, I think it's a tragedy...and I hope people don't forget about the situation as it drags on. Go to www.2600.com for all the details if you don't know... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- biggie from [157.89.46.1], at 3:54pm ET What is the classiest hack you know of? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 3:58pm ET I remember at a hacker convention in Las Vegas (defcon), I saw one of those huge video screens mounted outside of one of the hotels on the Strip. It was blasting a constant stream of mindless video drivel...advertisements, etc. I came back later in the day, and I saw that the whole screen was now a computer desktop, and I saw a huge mouse pointer clicking here and there, exploring the system. I'm pretty sure it was a hacker exploring the computer that was sending the video, and I thought.. this is hacking...LIVE and 50 feet tall....everyone who saw it laughed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jo from [209.47.5.226], at 3:58pm ET I've read about you (the cult of the dead cow) for some time. What, if anything, inspired the name. Just Curious. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 4:02pm ET If I remember correctly, the founder of the group years ago was exploring an old slaughterhouse and was inspired by the...well, dead cows, lying everywhere. :) Someone recently wrote: "You don't go to cDc and get a steak. You get a dead cow. It's fresh and raw and not always pretty." Raw information..uncensored...no pretty packaging, just the REAL STUFF. That, to me, is what the name really implies... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator at 4:03pm ET Folks, we're going to have to wrap this up. Sorry we couldn't get to all the questions, folks, but thanks for your participation. Count Zero, thanks for stopping by. You can read more about hackers here on ABCNEWS.com, and the cDc site is at http://www.cultdeadcow.com. Thanks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Count Zero at 4:04pm ET You're welcome...my pleasure..and if anyone wants to ask me stuff by email, I'd be happy to chat...my homepage is http://www.count0.com/ ... and my email is count0@cultdeadcow.com. kw