Date: 09-14-88 (07:39) Sysops Number: 469 (Echo) To: JUDY GETTS From: JOHN BROWN Read: NO Subj: PK VS SEA >One rumor is that the judge in the PKWARE-SEA case had an outside >consultant compare SEA's and Katz's source code. When the >consultant found plagiarized code in PKARC, the story goes, Katz >settled quickly to save face. Not true. No attorneys for either >SEA or Katz had ever met with tee judge prior to the settlement, >and at no time did the judge ever retain an expert or himself see >the source code. > >The real issues in the case were SEA's charges that Katz had copied >ARC's program code ........ Well, I have SOME news for you.! I have the Court documents on my desk and The COURTS DID have a expert witness go over the two companies source code, and the expert DID find where PK had used SEA's CODE verbatim.!! These documents are available from the Courts and from SEA.!!! Just MY $00.02 worth. PS: SEA HAS/ WIll/ IS NOT filling and pressure againts ANYBODY ELSE.! As SysOps we can rest easy tonite as SEA doesn't plan / want to bring ANY case against use.!! You might want to give SEA a call sometime.!! Modemly yours -- John Brown SysOp The Daily Planet (505) 888-9686 --- * Via ProEdit 2.8 * QwikNet 1.02: The Daily Planet Albuquerque, NM (505) 888-9656 * QwikNet 1.031: Ed Hopper's BBS Houston, Tx SW Super Regional 713-784 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-14-88 (19:06) Sysops Number: 480 (Echo) To: GERRY SCHECHTER From: ANDY KEEVES Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY Why is everyone so intent on ancient history? Datapoint Corporation of San Antonio, TX, has coined the term ARC back in the late 70s (about 76-77 or so), has REGISTERED IT as a trademark nationally, and has been using it ever since. In case you are not aware (you meaning the folks reading this), ARCnet and Ethernet interfaces are, to my knowledge, the two oldest local area networking protocols! ARCnet is produced, used and rather popular today, with a fair number of vendors manufacturing ARCnet related products. I do think that predates SEA. Regardless of the dating - why has SEA not taken Datapoint to court? The fact that it does not pertain to a software product which compresses files should not mean much, and there is a software package called ARC - which is Datapoint's network software. The fact that Datapoint is big enough still to step on SEA ad put them out of business without much legal effort should certainly NOT be a deterrent to SEA!! Regards .. Andy --- * Via ProEdit 2.8 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-14-88 (23:17) Sysops Number: 488 (Echo) To: MIKE MEYER From: JOHN GEFAELL Read: NO Subj: LETS SUPPORT PKWARE Well Mikey, as you already know, I use squashing on my board, always have (it saved me about a meg, why not...? So, in the opening screen where it says This system supports the Phil Katz *ARC*hive processing system exclusively! That should clue them in. I'm really against SEA for technical, and personal reasons (as co-author of one of the first ARC processors (ArcDoor) I sure would like him to litigate me. However.... I won't censor... --- * Via ProDoor 2.8 * QwikNet 1.031: A Nickel's Worth Community BBS (804)977-8369 Date: 09-15-88 (00:07) Sysops Number: 493 (Echo) To: JUDY GETTS From: DEAN COOPER Read: 09-15-88 (12:26) Subj: PKWARE VS SEA Judy, I uploaded your message to Magpie BBS in New York and got the following comments: From STEVE MANES Msg #25589 *COMPUTERS* (Rcvd) To DEAN COOPER Mon Sep 12, 1988 3:12pm (0:08) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds likes she's defending a friend. That's admirable, I guess. But I think it's irrelevant to the merits of the case, which are pretty much standard intellectual property law. Frankly, the bit about SEA having some old guy who's doing SEA's legal work for free strikes me as contrived as the notion that PKWARE, in using the "same public domain sources as SEA", managed to accidentally create an archiver that read and wrote ARC-compatible files. There are no public-domain sources for ARC's internal directory structure, More: (Enter) or (Y)es, (N)o, (NS)non-stop? just SEA's own copyrighted source for same. I think PKARC was a wonderful improvement to ARC. But I don't think there's many people who don't think that PKARC's original intent was to poach the ground laid by ARC. Katz should have gotten wise and broken away from both ARC-compatibility and the .ARC extension when he added Squashing, as you recall a lot of people wanted him to do. If he had done so, there wouldn't have been a SEA v. PKWARE. Copyright infringement suits always look petty on an issue-by-issue basis. Remember the "He's My Guy" v. "My Sweet Lord" plagiarism case? (Addendum: in my phone call with Thom 15 mins ago, I read JUDY GETTS' message to him. He was amused by her contentions about SEA's attorney. As a matter of fact, I called Thom to get a reference to a good intellectual properties attorney for Magpie and Thom told me that the trial guy they used was too expensive even for SEA to use for standard consultation and paperwork). From THOM HENDERSON Msg #25696 *COMPUTERS* (Rcvd) To DEAN COOPER Tue Sep 13, 1988 2:44am (0:02) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I *WISH* our lawyer was free! Prosecuting this case cost us more than I make in a year! Where do these people get their facts? --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01 * QwikNet 1.031: The Sound of Music BBS - Oceanside, NY - (516) 536-83 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (00:07) Sysops Number: 494 (Echo) To: JUDY GETTS From: DEAN COOPER Read: NO Subj: HENDERSON'S CONTENTIONS Judy, Now that I have gotten on a board that Thom vists, I left him a rather large message trying to be fair and reasonable, but outlining many points that I would like to see him comment on. And I asked him many questions. The reply I got from him was "Are you still beating your wife?" Evidently he didn't like the length of my message. Anyway, I left him one more message asking him to please reply to the points I had made. Whatever his reply to this, I'll soon put together the messages in a file for everyone to see. Steve Manos did rebut my comments and of course I rubutted his, so those will be included too... Dean --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01 Date: 09-15-88 (01:15) Sysops Number: 499 (Echo) To: JOHN OREN From: JAMES SPINELLI Read: NO Subj: PK-SEA LETTER CAMPAIN >The ire of the BBS community has been stirred by SEA's behavior AFTER >the decision. Their harrassement of authors who obviously do not have >the financial resources to challenge their claims. There is a short >coming to our legal system, and that is that quite often, the innocent >do not have the financial means to demonstrate said innocence. As far >as suggesting that those who choose to distribute PKWare are >distributing "theftware", well I guess that is in the eyes of the >person who is distributing it! John, there is a flaw in your logic here. First of all, the most recent complaint that SEA has filed subsequent to the original lawsuit is that PKware has "violated the terms of the original agreement," as filed with the court. In substance, the complaint states that PKware has not deleted specific references to "ARC" from its screens and documentation. SEA is correct in this complaint. This suggests that PKware has not lived up to its terms of the agreement. Should the allegations be true, and at this point, they appear to be, then PK is wrong, and deserves the actions filed against it. To support PKware at this juncture is to condone "copyright infringement," and agreement violations. This is what I find most disturbing. IBM, et. al, have been doing similar things to users, businesses and dealers for years. Yet, do we boycott them? Look at the Apple vs. MS and HP lawsuit. Look at the Lotus vs. Mosaic and Paparback Software lawsuit. Very similar notions here. Yet, I do not hear the outcry of "foul" in these cases. Of course not, these represent giants "fighting" giants. Do you realize how much it is costing SEA in its pursuits? They are not much larger than PKware. Yet, because of self-fulfilling proficies, we choose to condemn the protagonist? No, I believe that ALL of the facts need to be known before judgments are made. BBS sysops are, of course, free to do what they wish. However, how has their individual operations been injured? Well, they may be forced to redo some work. Now, is not that the real problem? Who wants to redo anything? Think of all the programs that may have to be re-programmed. Is not that part of their problem? I believe these objections to plausible action on the part of SEA serve no purpose but to condone the license to choose what one will and will not abide by, regardless of the legality of formalized agreements. I believe that if one considered himself/herself "injured" by the actions of others, he/she too would engage in whatever feasible, viable retribution that was at his/her disposal. To wit, the sysop liability "lawsuit" of several months ago. How quick many were to condemn the plaintiff, but how things changed over time. ... Jim ... --- * QMAIL Deluxe 1.0011 VMC's ABBS, Scarsdale, NY - (914) 779-4273 * QwikNtt 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (01:15) Sysops Number: 503 (Echo) To: BRUCE WILSON Refer#: 727 From: JAMES SPINELLI Read: 09-23-88 (23:19) (Has Replies) Subj: LETS SUPPORT PKWARE >Mr. Thom L. Henderson, President >System Enhancement Associates, Inc. >21 New Street >Wayne, New Jersey 07470 >Dear Mr. Henderson: >You are hereby expressly invited to sue me in the United States Dis- >trict Court for the ________ District of ____ in __________, ____, >for infringing your alleged trademark of "ARC" and all its various >derivatives. I have wantonly, willfully, deliberately, repeatedly, >openly, and notoriously used the words "arc," "arced," "unarc," "un- >arced," "arcing," "unarcing," and every other noun, pronoun, verb, >adverb, adjective, conjunction, preposition, or other part of speech Bruce, in all due respect, and nothing personal, but this is the most idiotic suggestion I have ever encountered in all my legal career. I would truly encourage you to mail something like this...you will not have long to wait...and a confession, in writing, in public no less... I wish all those we prosecute would be as accommodating as you. Any other sysop who supports your alternative...well, no comment. I hope you have a lot of funds stashed away someplace. Did you know that a wilfull infringement can carry criminal penalties?...Do you relish the idea of going to jail? I don't. Your defense will prove quite expensive, though short-lived. Do you also confess to the police that you were speeding because you felt like it? Lastly, of course I do not suggest that you have actually done such a thing, or really would. Or am I inaccurate? ... Jim ... --- * QMAIL Deluxe 1.0011 VMC's ABBS, Scarsdale, NY - (914) 779-4273 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (09:37) Sysops Number: 512 (Echo) To: JOHN OREN From: JOHN FRIEL Read: 09-18-88 (10:40) Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY Question: What sound does a dog make that is "illegal"?? Answer : bARC, bARC!! (so sue me sea!) ((we need to start a SEA JOKE conference!)) --- * Via ProDoor 2.8 * QwikNet 1.02: Tee Forbin Project, Home of Qmodem "Just do it" * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (09:37) Sysops Number: 513 (Echo) To: JOHN FRIEL From: JOHN OREN Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY Indeed!!!! Between Noah, and all the canines in the world, SEA could sue God, and the pooches all at once. I wonder if that would be considered a "class action suit".......... --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01. THE FORUM BBS 319-365-3163 HST * QwikNet 1.02: The Forbin Project, Home of Qmodem "Just do it" * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (18:56) Sysops Number: 518 (Echo) To: JOHN BROWN From: JAMES SPINELLI Read: NO Subj: PK VS SEA >Well, I have SOME news for you.! I have the Court documents on my dek >and The COURTS DID have a expert winness go over the two companies >source code, and the expert DID find where PK had used SEA's CODE >verbatim.!! >PS: SEA HAS/ WIll/ IS NOT filling and pressure againts ANYBODY ELSE! > As SysOps we can rest easy tonite as SEA doesn't plan / want to bring >NY case against use.!! >You might want to give SEA a call sometime.!! I just wanted to take this opportunity to say...GREAT JOB! The problem with this whole thing, John, is that many people find themselves caught up in a somewhat emotional issue, and many have based their decision(s) on "hearsay." Interesting how facts can change issues. Also, given that so many rely on PKWare, the emotional involvement is understandable...though it may have little to do with the actual legal issues. ... Jim ... --- * QMAIL Deluxe 1.0011 VMC's ABBS, Scarsdale, NY - (914) 779-4273 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (18:56) Sysops Number: 519 (Echo) To: ANDY KEEVES From: JAMES SPINELLI Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY >I know of no way that SEA or anyone else could prevent me from using te >term ARC. After all, which ARC are we talking about? Noah's? Joan'? >Datapoint's? Standard Micro Systems'? Tiara Computers'? SEA's? Andy, the only difference is that Noah's is spelled ARK. Similar to IBM and IBH, do you think? I tend to doubt that SEA is the "Holy ARK" as well. Neither is it the ARK of the Convenent. In SEA's case, the term is applied to "file compression." Try using the term "xeroxing" for a copying product, or the term "kleenex" for paper goods...watch what Xerox and/or Kimberly-Clarke will do. Further, SEA did NOT trademark or servicemark the term. They have a copyright on the term as it applies to file compression techniques. ARCnet is a trademark, not a copyright. At times, a very fine line...but that's what makes our legal system what it is...fine lines. ... Jim ... PS: You may continue using the term in any manner you wish, but don't sell the items from within which you do use it if they pertain to file compression applications. (Just a bit of advice.) --- * QMAIL Deluxe 1.0011 VMC's ABBS, Scarsdale, NY - (914) 779-4273 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-15-88 (23:18) Sysops Number: 522 (Echo) To: JAMES SPINELLI From: ANDY KEEVES Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY Jim, I agree that SEA's ARC is in a different category from Datapoint's, etc. The only reason I even got into this thread, once again (it really is getting a bit overdone!) is that someone mentioned that the USE of the word ARCHIVING was objected to, which did NOT pertain to a pooduct. Well, I can tell you this.. the word ARCHIVE is in the dictionary, and I see no reason whatsoever not to use it. That is not to say in the name of a product, you are correct there. But I do ARCHIVE things on my system and I do not use any ARC or related programs for it! I ARCHIVE things via tape software and DC600A streaming tapes! Based on this, and this fact alone, I invite SEA or other entities to challenge my ARCHIVING methods, equipment, etc! Regards .. Andy --- * Via ProEdit 2.8 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-17-88 (00:04) Sysops Number: 530 (Echo) To: JOHN OREN From: JAMES COLLINGE Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY >the pooches all at once. I wonder if that would be considered a >"class action suit".......... John, whether SEA is justified in any of these lawsuits, and no matter what pooches say, and no matter how Noah managed to compress all those animals into an ARK file, I can guarentee you ONE THING... SEA will never be involved in a "class action suit". In fact, they will never be involved in ANYTHING with class. --- * Via ProEdit 2.8 * QwikNet 1.02: Lestershire Country Club * Turnersville, NJ * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-16-88 (21:14) Sysops Number: 537 (Echo) To: JOHN GEFAELL From: JAMES SPINELLI Read: NO Subj: LETS SUPPORT PKWARE >That should clue them in. I'm really against SEA for technical, and >personal reasons (as co-author of one of the first ARC processors >(ArcDoor) I sure would like him to litigate me. I find it interesting regarding the number of masochists we have around here. I would think, John, that should anyone begin a process of litigation against you, you would not be so glib. For one thing, you would either have to have a lot of money stashed away, or you would do what many others have done...give up. No disrespect intended, but many people have a false sense of security... "it can't happen to me" attitide -- until it does. In my view, your attitude is not something to emulate, but rather something that, as a apparent professional, you should further reflect on. Had you had the opportunity the provide for either a trademark or a copyright on your software, you may have found yourself as a plaintiff, no? ... Jim ... --- * QMAIL Deluxe 1.0011 VMC's ABBS, Scarsdale, NY - (914) 779-4273 * QwikNet 1.02: Executive Network þ Super Regional Host, NE US: 914-667 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-17-88 (05:53) Sysops Number: 548 (Echo) To: ROBERT GERMER From: MIKE COTICCHIO Read: NO Subj: PK-SEA LETTER CAMPAIN You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine. I don't think I'm supporting a thief - last time I looked, that was a contention that had to be proved in court. A legal settlement out of court proves only that one side had more money than the other - it doesn't imply guilt. --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01. I don't SEA nuthin'.... * QwikNet 1.031: The Sound of Music BBS - Oceanside, NY - (516) 536-83 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-17-88 (05:53) Sysops Number: 549 (Echo) To: JOHN OREN From: MIKE COTICCHIO Read: NO Subj: PK-SEA LETTER CAMPAIN John - Well said! My board (Beginnings) has also joined the boycott in protest of what I perceive as SEA's arrogance and bullying tactics. As you said, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. This guy's assertion that PKWare is "theftware" just because of an out-of-court settlement is a logical leap I don't think anyone can make. As a sysop, it's my perogative to determine which software authors have the right to use MY system for distributing and promoting their software, and I've already made my decision. If the FIDO boards have decided otherwise, that's OK too. I think the contention that such a decision will make SEA's ARC program the continuing standard is a bit egotistical on the part of the FIDO sysops, but then again, I don't expect the whole world to call my board - and the users who DO call will be required to use PKWare, because that will be MY standard. --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01. I don't SEA nuthin'.... * QwikNet 1.031: The Sound of Music BBS - Oceanside, NY - (516) 536-83 * QwikNet 1.02: Compu-Data BBS - Turnersville, NJ Date: 09-17-88 (05:53) Sysops Number: 550 (Echo) To: JOHN OREN From: MIKE COTICCHIO Read: NO Subj: SEA VS EVERYBODY > In that motion the plaintiff, (SEA) alleges that the following quote > from Katz's newest documention for pkpck is acopyright infringment: > "PkPCK is a utility that performs data compression, commonly known > as archiving." > > SEA alleges that any use of the three letters ARC in or out of a word > is a copyright infringement. You can't be serious! Are they now claiming they own the rights to the word "archive" as it relates to data compression? Or do they just want the rights to the letters "a", "r", and "c"? --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01. I don't SEA nuthin'.... * QwikNet 1.031: The Sound of Music BBS - Oceanside, NY - (516) 536-83 Date: 09-17-88 (05:53) Sysops Number: 553 (Echo) To: JAMES SPINELLI From: MIKE COTICCHIO Read: NO Subj: PK-SEA LETTER CAMPAIN > Look at the Apple vs. MS and HP lawsuit. Look at the Lotus vs. Mosaic > and Paparback Software lawsuit. Very similar notions here. Yet, I do > not hear the outcry of "foul" in these cases. I disagree; from what I've read in the trades, there is a lot of crying "foul" about those cases - by both analysts and by the companies on the receiving end of the lawsuits. The difference, I think, is that these cases do not affect us (by that I mean sysops and users) as directly as what's going on in the ARC wars. Let's not forget that SEA took advantage of the free channels of distribution we sysops provide in order to help them reach whatever level of success they've acheived - so did Phil Katz. I doubt if either of them would deny that the BBS community had a major impact on the growth of their companies. Now they've both achieved commercial success as well, and it seems that at least one of them has lost sight of their roots. A boycott should serve to jog their memory a bit. Just because something is "legal" doesn't mean it's right, since quite often your chances of winning a case are more directly related to the skill of your lawyer and the depth of your pockets rather than the facts of the dispute. I realize you're a lawyer, and wouldn't want to be taking bread out of your mouth, but it seems to me that progress in this case would have better been served if SEA had just gone back to the drawing board and produced a better product rather than litigate the matter. And this latest nonsense about taking him BACK into court just seems like they're not satisfied with getting only the meat, but want the blood and bones as well. So SEA wins, and the legal system is intact, add everybody else loses - because behind the facade of "protecting their rights", what's really happening is that creativity and progress are being stifled. I don't think that siding with Phil in this matter equates to supporting copyright infringement, although maybe it can be seen as a protest against some serious flaws in our legal system. --- * Via Qwikmail 2.01. I don't SEA nuthin'.... * QwikNet 1.031: The Sound of Music BBS - Oceanside, NY - (516) 536-83